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SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 am Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks ago?Post by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:25 pm TL;DR: If you're an existing NFCU member, have you recently:
The full-length blow-by-blow story: I'm a long-time NFCU member getting hit with some problems that appear to be systematic, and I'm wondering whether any other NFCU members at Bogleheads are experiencing the same issues:
I've been a happy customer and proponent of NFCU, but the tone-deaf non-response by NFCU ("corporate", "central", back-office) to both the mass imposition of 5-day holds, and erroneously (and apparently systematically) effectively withdrawing from availability 2x or 3x the amount of deposited checks (in some cases taking the available balance negative, resulting in bounced checks and other failed payments) has me considering other options. But I'm not sure whether any other bank/CU institution is likely to be any better (more professional, less hidebound). Anybody else in Boglehead-land experiencing these problems? P.S. to preempt a likely question: I cannot receive these funds by direct/ACH deposit; they must be paid to me by mailed paper check. Edit: added TL;DR at top. Last edited by SunnySideUp on Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total. SemperFi79Posts: 93Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:42 pm Re: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SemperFi79 » Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:07 pm I’m not sure why you’re getting a five day hold when just did a mobile deposit with the standard two day hold: “ Mobile Deposit* Details Are the checks you’re depositing personal checks or checks with a business name/business check? That’s the only thing I can think of. Or is there a correlation with your account? Funds held? Daily average balance? I’ve been with them 40+ years and usually the 800# gets better results than local. My mobile deposit was a corporate check but gave deposited varying categories of checks and amounts with the two day hold. I think I had a five and maybe ten day which the released early as they were over $25k. Anyway instead of writing you a check they could do an intra bank transfer? That’s what I’ve used for some business transactions. Much easier than writing a check. That’s how I paid my contractor. Good luck. Good luck. Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:26 pm Thanks for the reply!
I got the same for 4 of the 5 affected checks: these are the "Approved" emails I referenced. 4 of the checks received a 2-day hold approval same as yours. The 5th, having amount < $2000, received what I call a "Hooray Approval" (signifying a 1-day hold is being applied):
The hold email notices started appearing in my email inbox 24 hours after the 5 Approval emails were received...
Business name. Same check source for many years.
Never had any funds held, none of the checks received from these sources (for over a decade now) has ever bounced. Daily average balance for past month is low six figures. As noted my original post, the NFCU branch manger/supervisor says this is happening across the board, without regard to check source or accountholder attributes (at least, as far as she can tell).
Covered this one in the P.S. of my first msg. Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:38 pm Yes, seeking to explain what was happening, I found that policy document. A quick search revealed that I had exceeded the $5525 daily deposit threshold 2 months earlier with no 5-day hold being imposed. Clearly the policy does not require that the 5-day hold be applied should the threshold be exceeded. And the NFCU branch manager informed me that what was happening had nothing in particular to do with my account, or the # of checks deposited, or the total amount of all checks deposited, on that one day. Anyway, as noted in my first post, the NFCU branch manager I spoke to today said that many customers (not just me) were up in arms about getting hit with 5-day holds for the first time, and IMO more egregiously, having the 5-day hold check $ amount deducted from their account balance multiple times, so I'm just looking for confirmation/refutation amongst the Boglehead population to comprehend extent of this problem, if any. cowbmanPosts: 465Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:10 pm Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:08 pm
I assume you're talking about my deposit-day sum exceeding $10,000? I was suspicious of this possibility from the beginning (as it was the first time the stars (well, USPS deliveries) ever aligned to allow me to deposit such a large total $ amount in a single day, even though the monthly amount deposited has been very stable), and I gave every NFCU rep I spoke to a wide opening to bring up this possibility, but none of them did. Now, they may be prevented by law from even mentioning the possibility. And perhaps all the anecdotes the branch manager conveyed to me today about many other customers being similarly impacted, upset, etc. starting 2 weeks ago were preplanned deceptive deflections ... ? Anyway, we'll see what other first-hand experiences this thread elicits (if any). Last edited by SunnySideUp on Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total. Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:40 pm
I may have fallen into that trap myself, largely due to having spent time being a customer of less competent Credit Unions (forget about banks! ). My bubble-bursting experience with NFCU came perhaps 2 years ago when they broke their Android App and left it broken for approximately 6 weeks: the app would crash on startup, and there was no fix available; during that time Google Play Store reviews for NFCU app were endlessly bad due to this problem (3rd party proof that this problem was not specific to my setup). My phone was running a version of Android OS well above that stated as minimum supported version in Google Play Store. I called NFCU and complained repeatedly, but got nowhere. This blew me away as I figured that more than most CU's, NFCU members being more geographically distributed relied more on the app. Finally I was able to implement a "if all else fails" suggestion made by one of the NFCU reps I spoke to, that I replace my Android phone with an iPhone; now I'll probably never actually use any Apple product aside from this one, but I did manage to dig up an iPhone 6S+ with a defective but usable screen, whose only purpose is to run the NFCU app. This 6+ year old phone is capable of running iOS 15 (the latest), and has run the NFCU app reliably for the last 2 years; I hope it'll keep serving its role for quite awhile longer .Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:51 pm
That's what I was thinking, certainly about putting the same deposited check on hold multiple times; pretty basic stuff! I guess I'm living in dreamland if I'm hoping for them to fess up about it and not just circle the wagons in a ring of see-no-evil denial and ignorance. P.S. I did have a problem a few months ago with NFCU rejecting checks being deposited to a trust account with only one trustee's endorsement, claiming "bad endorsement" (the name of the trust (check payee) has both my and DW's name in it, but for all trust accounts, any one trustee's endorsement alone is sufficient, and had been sufficient for years). When I chased them down (including calling their dedicated "Trust Department") about this, asking: "what am I supposed to do when I've endorsed the check correctly but it's being rejected?", they answered "try again" (sounds a lot like "reboot your phone/PC, maybe that will help"); when I asked "why should the second try deliver a different outcome than the first?" they did actually fess up that the initial rejection was human error. Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 07, 2022 11:14 pm I'm running an experiment today:
The above sequence is absolutely typical for a deposited "Hooray-Approved" check. I'll reply back circa 2100 hours tomorrow (6/8) to tell whether this check was put on a 5-day hold (or not). Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:35 pm
Follow-up: as of 2100 hours local time 6/8, the deposited check's amount remains added to the destination account's Available Balance. I've received no email notices informing me the check has been put on a 5-biz-day hold. My best guess at this point is that
is correct and last week's deposit triggered AML procedures,
and that "the first rule of [AML procedures] is that nobody at banks admits to the existence of AML or actions caused by AML", with all instead denying even the possibility to my face while pleading ignorance of bank operations in general. The double-debiting (double-holding) of the deposited amounts can be either chalked up to independent SW development incompetence at NFCU, or worse. cowbmanPosts: 465Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:10 pm Re: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by cowbman » Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:29 am
Correct. When a bank suspects structuring or other factors outlined by FinCEN, the bank isn't allowed to tell you. It's basically FIGHT Club. Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:07 am update 6/14: the preceding described episode appears not to be (solely) a case of a single days' combined deposits summing to > $10K. The most recent episode:
So either there is some other (AML or internal) blacklist onto which I've been put (because I [mobile] deposit a certain # of checks per month, or over a certain $ amount per month), or indeed NFCU has instituted in their "system" a much more draconian deposit-hold-maximization scheme (presumably affecting more members than just myself). Regarding check-clearing mechanics: these 5-biz-day-hold rules strike me as being a holdover from a time when some part of the check-clearing process was done via snail-mail: does anyone know under what circumstance a check being processed for payment between 2 fully-ACH-participating USA banking institutions (which I assume they all are) would NOT clear within 1-2 biz days, assuming the paying account contained sufficient funds? Relevant contemporaneous anecdote: 6/13 (Mon 0830 hours), I handed a check (for < $2,000) written against this same NFCU account to a contractor, who deposited it. When I checked my NFCU Account via website 6/13 (Mon 2216 hours), the check had cleared (its amount debited from my account's Available Balance) and NFCU offered me the usual photo showing both sides of the deposited check. So in every possible sense of the word, that check cleared, and did so on the very same day (or at least, < 24 hours after) it was presented for payment. The point being that, when I deposit a check with e.g. NFCU, and they reply with a "Hooray Approved [1-day-hold]" email, and the next biz day those funds are (until this thread topic arose in 22.06) available in my account, this is almost certainly happening because the deposited check actually cleared, not because NFCU is "being nice" and fronting me the nominally deposited funds while a longer check clearing process grinds slowly to completion invisibly in the background. Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:50 am Update: the 5-day holds stopped as of deposits made effective 6/21. A total of 7 checks have been deposited between 6/21 and today with normal (1- or 2-day, depending on check amount) holds being applied. To date there has been no communication from NFCU about the imposition of the 5-day holds or their cessation. My strong suspicion remains that my depositing of > $10K in the form of multiple checks on 5/31 triggered a FinCen "investigation" which entailed imposition of the 5-day holds while the "investigation" ran its course (in between 16 and 21 days). Hopefully this is the one and only time I'll get hit by this. GuyInFLPosts: 644Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:17 pm Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:40 pm Update: on Monday 7/12 I deposited 5 checks, total amount < $5100; these were all, at least 1 day after their funds were made available in my account, put on 5-biz-day-hold w/o email hold notices being sent to me (I was not monitoring balances daily after the deposited funds became available as no transactions were anticipated during the week following these deposits and I mistakenly thought I was past all the late-arriving 5-biz-day hold crap); this AM I stumbled across a major difference between Current and Available Balances, downloaded recent-history CSV, ran it thru my "hold detector" filter; yep all 5 checks (including one for $300) are held). I called NFCU, was told by first line support that the holds were because [paraphrasing] "the system indicated that these deposits have an above average likelihood of not being paid" (this is the typical "factual basis" I'm provided by NFCU for their 5-biz-day holds). As usual, I requested a supervisor... this time I got one who was slightly more illuminating than those in the past:
In an attempt to verify what the NFCU supervisor told me, I attempted to delve into the semi-impenetrable mess/mass of ACH. My research indicates that long after 5 biz days, an ACH transaction can be returned (rejected, clawed back): there are multiple ACH Return reasons having a 60-day deadline (and 60 days is not the longest deadline)! The best one-line summary of ACH that I stumbled across is "[T]he ACH network[:] where nothing is ever confirmed settled, it just hasn't come back returned yet."[0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7636610 part of a discussion about... 2014 article series "How ACH works: A developer perspective":
Anyway, I'm going to be depositing some checks elsewhere; I have no hope that anywhere else will have "better" hold policies, but in the past few months, like many I am chasing higher deposit account interest rates that NFCU does not offer, so why not (at least try to) deposit some funds directly there (and see how much worse the experience is: my experience with business phone apps is they can be VERY poor)? We'll see whether I can tolerate Ally and Vanguard's check-depositing apps... edit1: cleanup presentation of article links and related forum discussion. wabbottPosts: 266Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:55 pmLocation: Ruston, LARe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by wabbott » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:36 am JPM Chase. I had a significant ($250K) cd mature yesterday at a large regional credit union - Barksdale Federal CU. I drove to the local branch and had them issue me a cashier's check. I would have done ACH, but was told that 10K per day was max. My intent was to reinvest promptly to take advantage of the attractive rates. JPM Chase, who I've done biz with for 20 years promptly placed a hold on the entire deposit until 9/30. This was a complete surprise to me and now cannot buy another cd until the issue is resolved. This morning I've messaged the bank and all I'm getting is boilerplate. I have an 800 number to call at 9AM EDT, that allegedly can help me.
Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:08 am Thanks for noticing and sharing this! My reading is that they are simply delaying the availability of up to $225 of a deposit which they unconditionally make available in ("front to") the destination account regardless of the hold to which the overall deposit is otherwise subjected. Aside: in my most recent calls to NFCU on this (thread) subject, I asked if this fronting of up to $225 could be disabled in my account (it can make independent analysis of how NFCU arrived at the current Available Balance very difficult since at times such "fronted" funds are completely invisible in the online account register); of course the answer was "no"...
That's what they keep saying, but $225 per day per account seems like a relatively small exposure, and an account with otherwise zero balance which immediately withdraws this "fronted" amount followed by the associated deposited check(s) bouncing (which appears to be the only scenario in which NFCU suffers a loss of the fronted funds) seems like it would be immediately targeted for freezing or closure. Topic Author SunnySideUpPosts: 47Joined: Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:48 amRe: Navy Federal Credit Union check deposits: 5-day holds and multiple debiting of held check amounts starting 2 weeks aPost by SunnySideUp » Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:14 am An update, and hopefully, closure: Very late in Oct I observed significant changes in how NFCU processes and makes available my usual monthly mobile check deposits
Hopefully this change (generally, a return back to the pre-late May 2022 norm) in mobile deposit processing continues. In hindsight, this whole episode seems to have been the result of either poorly specified or implemented policy. How long does Navy Federal take to approve a deposit?You must submit a deposit by 6:00 pm, ET, Monday through Friday, and receive a deposit approval email that same day for an item to be considered received that day. Deposits made on weekends or Federal Holidays are considered received on the next Business Day.
How long does it take Navy Federal to process a payment?If you choose to pay from a Navy Federal account, you'll receive credit for the payment on the same day. However, keep in mind that if you make your payment using an external account, the payment could take 2 to 5 days to post to your account. Setting up automatic payments is one way to keep up with your payments.
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